On VFP's Future: "World of Tomorrow, Part V" (Blog: Gonzo)

The World of Tomorrow, Part Five

From the blog:

In plainspeak, RIA is an attempt to make browser based apps look and feel like rich client apps. Those of you who have paid attention to the last few years of VFP soundbites (which I helped write) will note that rich client apps were a selling point of VFP.

RIA is, potentially, a great direction for VFP developers to go towards. The tools insulate the developer from the background mechanics and allow the developer to focus on the business process. I go back to a previous analogy - do we want to build bricks? Hell, no, we want to build houses.

On VFP's Future: "Cloudy" (Blog: Gonzo)

The Future is Cloudy

From the blog:

I mean, nothing against Craig Boyd, but why in the hell does one want to mix XAML and VFP in the real world? Sure, it's a great intellectual exercise, but if XAML is where you want to go why involve VFP whatsoever? And why XAML? The builders are not there yet so there's a lot of hand-tooling...something VFPers generally detest.

---

My point here is that .Net architecture just doesn't work the way most VFP developers are comfortable with. There's too many moving parts. Simple issues become consumed by the sheer complexities of the platform. VS 2008 will solve some of these issues, ie LINQ, but not all of them.

.Net can do things that VFP developers have a very hard time with. But the opposite is certainly true as well. So why the push to move VFPers to the .Net platform unless it's a mainly marketing exercise?

---

Introducing risk out of fear and not need is a cargo cult-ish anti-pattern. Can you count the number of disasters you've seen because some bozo decided they had to use the newest and greatest for a project when they didn't have to and, subsequently, damaged or killed the project? I have seen my fill of those.

From the comments:

I think we're stuck with shit for all database work for the time being. We're used to integrated databases and DML in our environments but the rest of the world is trending opposite.

On VFP's Future: "...Ready for Community-based VFP?" (Blog: Andrew MacNeill)

MS VFP starts its departure - are you ready for community-based VFP?

From the blog:

I still want to find other ways of baking new stuff with VFP, be it linking with open Web APIs, other databases and more. It's not the tool - it's what you do with it and with FoxPro, you can and still will be able to do a lot.

On Announcement: "RIP VFP" (Blog: Some_SQL_Guy)

R.I.P Visual FoxPro

From the blog:

Where is the wake ;-) Finally this thing is about to die, no more having to deal with 40 tables because each FoxPro table has a 2GB limit. And don’t get me started with exclusively locked tables either. I think that I will listen to die, die my darling by Metallica while I finish this post. Here are some of the lyrics

Die, die, die my darling
Dont utter a single word
Die, die, die my darling
Just shut your Foxy eyes (I replaced pretty with Foxy)

So for all you FoxPro lovers, there is a great new site (so there is hope for you ;-)) VFP-Conversion

Think Outside the Fox-Den!

From the comments:

Another headache for me is when people open the table (exclusively) and leave to go home. Yes for a small organiation it is good and I have nothing against FoxPro. I also have nothing against FoxPro being used as an inteface as long as the data is stored in a proper RDBMS. FoxPro and VB will be here for a long time.......

On Announcement (Blog: Bob Gusek)

RIP Foxpro

From the blog:

Only thing I have to say is 'IT IS ABOUT TIME', hehehe.

From the comments:

I agree with you. no more exclusively locked tables and tables that can only handle 2GB

Another:

It may be true that it will be supported by 2015, but I doubt that MS will turn around and say 'Oh, just kidding, here's FP10'.

On VFP vs .NET - "World of Tomorrow, Part IV" (Blog: Gonzo)

The World of Tomorrow, Part Four
From the blog:

Contrast this with .Net. While the Designers are similar to the VFP Designers, the code behind the pretty pictures is daunting. Yes it's elegant and flexible, yes it's powerful but it's very difficult to do simple stuff that's not drag-and-drop from a toolbox.

---

VFP developers, for the most part, freely give away their secrets and that overcomes a lot of the language difficulties. Those that charge for their wares do so because of their huge investment of time in their work and no one would expect less. VFP developers do not have to invent the brick to build their houses....unless they want to.

Not so in the .Net world. You may not want to invent the brick but few are going to give it to you. There sure are a lot of brick assemblies for sale, though. Good thing, because it would take you a long, long time to build that brick and you better have a good grasp of chemistry and engineering to do so.

On Announcement (Blog: Garrett Fitzgerald)

FoxPro out to pasture at last

On Announcement (Blog: Alan Stevens)

The Fox is dead. Long live The Fox.

From the blog:

On a DotNetRocks episode, Don Box was asked if COM is dead. His response applies to Visual FoxPro as well. Don replied, "COM isn't dead, COM is done." That is the best summary I can think of regarding this announcement. Visual FoxPro isn't dead, Visual FoxPro is done.

---

Now, I don't think anyone is suggesting green-field development with Visual FoxPro, but any existing investments are fully support until 2015, and extensible with development tools that are under active development.

---

Truth be told, Visual FoxPro development will continue beyond Microsoft's current product timelines, but it will not be called Visual FoxPro. Henceforth it will be known as LINQ, ADO.NET and SQL Server.

---

Alan Griver gave a presentation on LINQ at the East Tennessee .NET Users Group in January, and he made the best association I've heard for the connection between VFP and LINQ. Alan said, "In Visual FoxPro, all data is converted to a common format called a cursor, and all data operations are made against the cursor, then updates are sent to their data source. With LINQ, we replace the cursor with collections of objects."

---

I want to close with a quote from Visual FoxPro MVP Craig Boyd, "If Microsoft is trying to kill VFP, then they're doing a piss-poor job of it."

On VFP in China (Blog: Tod McKenna)

Tod McKenna points out:

Did you know that “a survey showed that Microsoft’s FoxPro database application accounted for 65% of database installations in
China, yet Microsoft had not sold a single legal copy in the country.” (source)

This blows me a way. I know pirating is bad in China but this is just unbelievable. Imagine if 10% of those installs were legal. Microsoft would have additional pressure to carry on the language (and would have plenty of additional revenue as well).

From the comments:

...this survey is sure a bit older, since I remember to have heard that very same numbers several years ago…

One interesting fact here is, that (at least to my knowledg

e) FOX Software had a deal with a Chinese Software company, who localized FoxPro to the Chinese market on their own. That’s why FoxPro had a very good standing in China from the beginning. When MS took over, they didn’t renewed that agreement, but provided the two Chinese language DLLs with the main product. There are not too many MS products with chinese support out of the box.

Another:

Imagine how many copies would have been sold if VFP supported Unicode properly..

"FoxPro Users Petition to Keep Database Language Alive" (Article: Eric Lai)

by Eric Lai

From the article:

But overseas, FoxPro remains a rock star in places like China and Eastern Europe. A 2005 presentation by Ken Levy, then Microsoft’s Visual FoxPro product manger, in Sofia, Bulgaria, reportedly drew 1,000 attendees.

"The way the French are about fashion, the Americans are about technology," Cully said. "We are always throwing out what we’ve got for the latest thing. But in other countries, there are still lots of FoxPro users because they are focused on getting the job done in a cost-effective way, with little regard for the buzzword of the day."

---

The Virtual FoxPro User Group has 14,000 active members, Keeler said. And according to a popular ranking of programming languages by Tiobe Software BV, FoxPro was ranked the 13th most-popular language as recently as last July, ahead of more modern languages such Visual Basic and ColdFusion.

---

Finally, while Vista’s recent introduction heralds the mainstreaming of 64-bit desktop computing -- a problem since FoxPro is 32-bit only today -- it will be many years before 32-bit PCs disappear, if the long transition from 16- to 32-bit Windows is any guide.

"FoxPro's Demise a Long Time Coming, Some Users Say" (Article: Eric Lai)

by Eric Lai

From the article:

But demand for the product remains high in Latin America, where there are more than 50,000 active FoxPro users, according to the MasFoxPro developers.

"FoxPro Supporters Lobby to Keep DB Tool Alive" (Article: Eric Lai)

by Eric Lai

From the article:

Interest in FoxPro may not be as low in the U.S. as trade-show attendance figures indicate. The Virtual FoxPro User Group has 14,000 active members, according to Keeler. And the software isn’t saddled with an aging user base: Most of the user group’s U.S. members “are in their late 30s or early 40s,” he said.

Keeler added that because of Microsoft’s long neglect of FoxPro, the software’s users are “very self-sufficient.” That, he said, should help ease the transition of the technology to the open-source world.

From the comments:

I think Microsoft should look to phase out Access and retain VFP. But I guess there is always Oracle to fall back on.

"Good News, Bad News for Visual FoxPro Developers" (Article: Stuart J. Johnston)

by Stuart J. Johnston

From the article:

But even though the company is washing its hands of anything beyond code maintenance for the next seven years, don't expect Microsoft to release the VFP core code base to the open source community. The company has ruled out that move for intellectual property reasons, though it's trying to put the best face on it.

"One of the things I'm proudest of is that while we can't open source the core, the extensibility model allows folks to keep adding new capabilities," says Alan Griver, group manager for VFP.

---

Microsoft surveys have found that more than half of the VFP customer base has used FoxPro-based products for more than 12 years. Additionally, 60 percent are overseas and 80 percent work in small companies, according to data gathered in 2005.

---

"As a company, we're still developing new VFP applications," says Brian Jones, CEO of DPRA Inc. in Knoxville, Tenn. "A significant concern for me is not so much the immediate impact on VFP development but the fact that it's becoming more difficult to attract or find VFP developers, [because] when a product's gurus move on and new ones don't fill their places, then the community's focal point fades."

Translation: Releasing Sedna to VFP's community will help extend the tool's life, but eventually most developers (and their customers) will have to move on to something else.

From the comments:

Most of the angst by VFP developers over its demise is not because its adherents can't or won't learn the language du jour (C# or VB.NET); rather, it's simply the fact that writing data-centric applications in .NET, even for an experienced .NET developer, takes considerably more code and more time than it would if done in Visual FoxPro.

On Announcement (Blog: Ken Murphy)

Link Lost

The decision to cease further development of VFP is one that I believe Microsoft, and especially, the SQL server division will come to regret. I develop database apps for charities, and it has been my experience that most of these charities eventually move to a SQL server back end. I would suggest that the same is true of many small businesses. VFP is a fantastic language for developing entry level database apps for small to medium businesses. The power and speed of VFP allows people like me to develop tools for these smaller organizations that allow them to grow. Evenutally, they outgrow the VFP back end and typically move to a SQL solution. If SQL were a major league baseball team, VFP would be their farm team. I wonder how many major league teams would succeed if they were to get rid of all their farm teams?

On Announcement (Blog: Dave Aring)

Denial Isn't Just a River in Egypt

From the blog:

The news came as a surprise to many of the developers in the FoxPro community, but those developers must have been in denial or had their heads buried in the Hentzenwerke “Hacker’s Guide” because the handwriting has been on the wall for months. Years! Decades?

---

Nevertheless, the fact is that Microsoft is going to support Visual FoxPro only through 2015, so there is no sense in denying it any longer. VFP is on its own.

Notice and this is very important, I did NOT say that VFP is DEAD. I just said it is on its own. Why? Because 2015 is eight years away. Who knows what will happen by then? I, personally, am still maintaining applications written in the mid 1990s that the clients love and couldn’t do without. I expect to see applications, being written today, around for another twenty years. The applications do EXACTLY (another key word) what the client wants them to do and they have no plans of abandoning them. Isn’t that the bottom line? So, if you are in need of custom applications and plan on being in business for the next 20-25 years, there is no compelling reason why you shouldn’t consider (or at the very least, do not summarily dismiss) having those applications written in Visual FoxPro. An honest, ethical developer should offer you all options, explain the pros and cons of each, and then help you to decide upon the approach that is best for you.

From the comments:

Notice how your reference for greatness in your post is all about the bygone era of the pre .COM bubble? Nothing past that to beat the drum with?

Response from Dave:

...my whole point was to emphasize how the applications I alluded to were developed in the past and, TODAY, are still viable. Then, extrapolating that fact, I feel we can safely ASSume that applications being developed today will still be running for many years (maybe 10-20).

On the MasFoxPro Petition (Blog: Rick Schummer)

MasFoxPro Petition

From the blog:

It is my belief and is something I predicted a little less than two years ago: someone will build another FoxPro clone, just like Fox Software did to kick the snot out of dBASE back in the 1980s. I said this not long after the VFP Roadmap was announced and feel with the recent Microsoft announcements that the market is primed for alternatives. We are seeing some public work from companies like etecnologia and their VFPCompiler for .NET, and even some rumblings from the old dBASE now owned by a company known as dataBased Intelligence, Inc. I am certain other projects are in the works.

On Announcement (Blog: Rick Schummer)

yag reaffirms VFP Roadmap

From the blog:

I think the biggest concern within the community is long term viability of VFP apps on the currently supported operating systems, and moving forward with newer technology. Alan assured us that there will be support through 2015 and Microsoft has C++ resources available to work on major bugs found in the product moving forward, but the resources for VFP 9 SP2 are defined and now is the time to get it working smoothly.

From blog:

It is my belief and is something I predicted a little less than two years ago: someone will build another FoxPro clone, just like Fox Software did to kick the snot out of dBASE back in the 1980s. I said this not long after the VFP Roadmap was announced and feel with the recent Microsoft announcements that the market is primed for alternatives. We are seeing some public work from companies like etecnologia and their VFPCompiler for .NET, and even some rumblings from the old dBASE now owned by a company known as dataBased Intelligence, Inc. I am certain other projects are in the works.

Who knows what the future holds, but I know one thing for certain, a positive outlook and set of actions will lead to a more positive outcome.

On Announcement (Blog: Gonzo)

The Eschatology of Visual FoxPro

From the blog:

Once VFP 9 was released, the Team went into a sort-of caretaker mode with Ken enlisting some community members to support Sedna.

It's each customers own decision how much or how little they continue to develop and support VFP applications. But there is a robust and experienced VFP community that will always be supportive and informative so this announcement shouldn't be a death sentence.

Rather, I agree with YAG that this will be a good thing in the medium to long term as the former Fox Team developers are tasked with taking great features and ideas from VFP and getting them into VS with the help of some very astute PMs.

On Announcement (Blog: Alex Feldstein)

Visual FoxPro Sedna goes Open Source - VFP lives on

From the blog:

By the time official support expires FoxPro would be 23 years old in Microsoft plus almost 10 years before that, in one form or another! What other piece of commercial software, with the exception maybe of Flight Simulator, has had such a successful run?

From the comments:

I appreciate your positivity about Sedna and the open source efforts related to VFP, but my concerns far outweigh anything positive resulting from these efforts.

A potential problem is that the core exe may become incompatible with Windows versions beyond Vista, or incompatible with future computer hardware. I have no proof that this will happen, but there is a definite concern in this regard.

Also, I don't think we know in 2007 that we will never require additional core features or functionality in the future (the stuff that will never be accessible to modification without having access to the core source code). Application technology and requirements are always evolving, and I find it hard to believe that VFP 9.0 will remain adequate for development requirements in fhe future.

I believe that companies using VFP should plan on migrating to other platforms, which will be supported in the long-term, and which will continue to evolve with the times. Given the news, I believe that staying with VFP for too much longer is a very risky option.

Another:

Choosing an open-source language as an alternative helps insulate you from these "end of road" scenarios.

We now use Python and PHP a lot, and are using a lot more web interfaces at the desktop. Those languages may not be ideal for developing GUI desktop applications, but they are portable to other platforms.

If we can't deploy our code in Windows any more for some reason (such as a management decision to stop using Windows) we should be able to move our code fairly easily to Linux or some other platform.

Another:

I Love Foxpro and have developed a order/entry time and material tracking program for my company. Now that foxpro is a dead product I can't afford to use it anymore. I now need to rewrite my program as it has come to be the core of our business. I can't take any more chances at being tossed about by the whims of Redmond and sadly nothing out there compares to foxpro. MS has really screwed up and screwed me.

(More) On Announcement (Blog: Alan Griver)

Thoughts and comments

From the blog:

Where you want to go from here is really up to you. I can say, however, that the VFP team is working on the next version of VB.NET (as we’ve talked about for over a year now), and there are some interesting tools that help you either go to .NET, or integrate new .NET code with your VFP applications. There are also at least two .NET frameworks written by folks who come from VFP. There is also a good community on the Universal Thread made up of VFP people who have already added .NET to their repertoire. But again, it’s up to you.

From the comments:

I will spare myself the searching for reasons to keep it alive. The people paying the bills are opting for the mainstream and that is NOT VFP: period! If any one of you can continue to milk the goat, have fun and good luck.

More:

I feel like left alone out in the rain.

Reading this blog makes me feel even worse.

Mr. Griver has talked to 50 different companies?

Well maybe someone should have told him the world is bigger

and the VFP users consist of a lot more than 50 companies.

One of the good sides is, we are free to go where we want to.

Even Mr. Griver has approved this for us.

Anyone interested in trusting a company and in people behaving like

this?

As it's for me..... no way.

I did not expect MS giving the source code away.

It's just so obvious. We are all to stupid to understand the source and

the entire community has done nothing towards the development. MS has

always shipped a perfect version without any bugs.

I would feel so guilty by killing thousands of jobs.

Instead of acting like we got something to celebrate.

This is so disgusting.

More:

YAG why dont you quit talking to your friends that WONT sign the petition and talk to the "real" VFP community. You all should be disgraced by your actions.

Another:

I see a theme here you cant release the source because we "the VFP community" are not smart enough which echos some VP at MSFT [SOMA'S] comments that the vfp programmers are only upset because we dont want to learn a new language. I guess you are only a real programmer if you work at MSFT.

You guys just dont get it.

WE NEED A SUITABLE REPLACEMENT FOR VFP AND MIGRATION PATH AND THE TRUTH WHY MSFT DROPPED VFP!

On Announcement (Blog: Craig Berntson)

It's not dead, Jim

From the blog:

Are you angry at Microsoft? You shouldn’t be. It’s not Microsoft’s responsibility to keep VFP or even keep your skills current. It’s your responsibility to stay current. So, where do you go…what do you do? Here are some ideas:

- Stay with VFP. Keep writing apps as you are.
- Stay with VFP and start to integrate .Net features such as WCF, WPF, or even WinForms using the WinForms Interop Toolkit.
- Move to some other language. It doesn’t have to be a .Net language. You may want to look at Ruby on Rails, Python, Java, or something else. You can even continue working in VFP short term with the language move being long term.
- Move into another field. Perhaps you’re tired of trying to keep up with the constant churn of technology. Look at other career options.
- Retire.
- Something else?

The official end of VFP development should not be the end of your career. In fact in should be an exciting time. One that is full of new opportunities.

On Announcement (Blog: David Stevenson)

Major VFP News from Redmond - Good and Bad (Sad)

From the comments:

Mark Gordon said...

There is nothing good about MSFT discontinuing support for VFP. Have you really tried to work with .BLOAT this product is a JOKE!

To make my case:

1) The OOP implementation used by the smart tag controls mixes programming code that should be in the business tier into the interface layer in the code behind.

2) The debugger is missing from SQL Server. Yeah you can debug SP from .NET if you can get the setup correct and have a ton of luck.

3) Unless you are performing very basic tasks stored procedure functions performance is horrible. Therefore you have duplicate code in your stored procedure.

4) In .BLOAT design a business tier with a data reader object and pass it to the front end to consume. That works well except the front end has to close the data reader created in the middle tier. Again not exactly great OOP principles.

5) Say you have a stored procedure which you want to perform against an entire dataset that requires input parameters.

Common sense would dictate a syntax such as exec mysp (select field1, field2 from mytable) would do the trick ...

Sorry guess what have to use cursor and fetch which is slow and requires a ton of code.

6) In a select statement the field list and group by clause have to match identically, a sql standard right ... well try getting the unique identifier for the row returned by the group by clause.
When do you ever design a report that just had a sum, min or max field. It is a royal pain ... In vfp just change the set enginebehavior.

7) People all excited because ling is supporting a skip clause give me a break that has been in foxpro since the beginning. what is the next coolest feature they are putting into ling SCAN FOR logic.

8) The class designer is all smoke and mirror in VS 2008 ... Where is the visual inheritance of controls? Missing ... Try to tie two classes together in the designer, cant be done need to code it out. The class designer sure has a sharp UI however too bad it functionally blows.

9) Object Security. It does not exist in VS 2008 even if you implement private classes you can just use c# reflection to get at the inner workings of the class. WOW bet no one would figure that out.

10) Object firing order in vs 2008 controls. In VFP events and methods fired in a predictable manner. Just take a list box control in VS.BLOAT and try to determine the event firing sequence it is eratic as best.

11) MVC is supposed to be a big enhancement for VS 2008 only one problem the framework didn't ship. Beside the fact, why must MSFT develop a new programming paradigm every freaking release of .BLOAT. Perhaps if they did it right the first time we would not have a new one stuffed down our throat.

12) MSFT couldn't get ASP forms to be response and eliminate the refresh so instead of fixing the issue they create yet another tool AJAX.

I could go on but you get my point ... I'm sick and tired of people cheerleading MSFT for crap development tools. If MSFT killed off VFP and a suitable replacement development environment existed I would not have a problem with their decision. But basic tasks I can do in foxpro for DOS is freaking missing from .BLOAT. .BLOAT is far from mature and is NOT by any stretch of the imagination data centric and people are applauding MSFT'S decision, this is ridiculous. Instead of wasting time on language such as f# or silverlight they should have incorporated VFP data functionality into VB.NET or ported the language into .BLOAT before killing the product. People make their living writing data application and NOW MSFT does not have a single data centric language I dont get it ...

When are people going to tell MSFT we are tired of this crap !!!

On Announcement (Blog: Doug Hennig)

Microsoft's Announcement

From the blog:

I remember Ken Levy's response at various conferences when asked what was going to be in the next release of VFP: "what features do you want?" Invariably, the answer was "I don't know". I honestly can't think of any new feature I want in VFP that must be in the core (ie. VFP9.EXE). The things I want, like new UI components (such as the Office 2007 ribbon), can be created using VFP code, GDI+ calls, or ActiveX controls without touching the core.

More:

...as long as it continues to work on any future operating system Microsoft chooses to release (and there isn't anything special in VFP that would prevent that from happening any more than there is in hundreds of thousands of other applications), I'm fine. I can continue to develop VFP applications for at least the next 10 to 15 years, at which point I'll be ready for retirement. In other words, if I choose to do so, I could use VFP for the rest of my career.

More:

To me, dead means I can't buy any more licenses so no new staff could legally use it and there'd be no support available for it. I'm willing to bet that, like me, you've never or rarely contacted MS for VFP support, because the support available from the VFP community is so much better, faster, and cheaper than what you can get from MS.

More:

The future of VFP is on CodePlex, in the VFPX and other VFP-related projects. We as a community can continue to enhance VFP through shared source projects. Just look at the extremely cool projects available there now. Add to that the entire set of components in Sedna and all the other things people can create and you'll see that there isn't much limit to what we can continue to do with VFP.

Finally:

It comes down to using the right tool for the right job and making decisions that make sense for your business and your customers.

From the comments:

It is not so much about changing the core to add new features (more built in control over process threads would be nice) but allowing VFP to coexist with future version of Microsoft software and operating systems.

It is almost a given at some point there are going to be changes to the API that VFP simply will not be able work with.

...Furthermore SQL Server is a great backend for FoxPro. There are no gaurantees VFP will be able use future SQL data types and it will fall behind in it's SQL implementation and to the best of my knowledge SEDNA will not be able to address any of these issues as these types of changes are made at the core level of VFP.

I really do not forsee performing any new future development in FoxPro because for the above stated issues.

"Visual FoxPro: Its Day Has Finally Come" (Article: Bradley L. Jones)

by Bradley L. Jones


From the article:

It will be the end of updates. With FoxPro, however, a lot of functionality comes from the extensibility features and add-ins that the product has supported. Microsoft has decided to allow this extensibility to continue even if the core of Visual FoxPro won't. The extensibility features of Visual FoxPro will be posted to CodePlex.com. It is worth noting that according to Microsoft, 70 to 80 percent of all new features have come from community suggestions. As such, the move of the extensibility features to CodePlex could result in continued evolution of the extensions.

On Announcement (Blog: Randy Jean)

Microsoft VFP Announcement


From the blog:

Quite surprisingly, a lot of people who are highly regarded in the VFP and software development community are looking at this as generally positive news. Myself, I'm a bit dubious. Working for a software shop that uses several various technologies (VFP, Java, .NET, PHP, BEA, Oracle, SQL Server, etc.) there is an expectation that we look to "future proof" our work as much as possible. Overall, the decision to use VFP on many, many successful projects has been a very good thing. But now what do I recommend? Of course we who use VFP every day can attest to it's technical and RAD capabilities, etc., but many of our corporate clients want to know that if we go away, or I get hit by a bus, etc. that they can find someone to support their apps. Last time I checked, there was not a whole lot of VFP talent in South Bend, Indiana.

More:

It’s sad because as a software engineer, even when I know VFP may be the perfect fit for a new project, I'm also a consultant and I have to be pragmatic and may not recommend new projects use VFP. Maybe it’s because I’m just getting tired of constantly fighting the negative spin and this news might make the fights harder to win.

More:

There’s nothing worse than implementing a successful project only to have the decision of the development tool questioned over and over, sometimes several years later, every time a new person (or manager) gets involved with the project. Fortunately, I have clients that actually look at the results and know when to dismiss the undeserved negative remarks about VFP, but who knows about the next potential client….

Analysis of search trends (Blog: Craig Bailey)

Craig Bailey pointed this out on his blog:

Search Trends of Foxpro / VFP / Visual Foxpro

On Announcement (Blog: Mike Feltman)

Business Decision Regarding VFP?

From the blog:

Ok, ranting aside, the truth is it would've been more difficult to make VFP a .NET language back in the 90's because .NET wasn't as capable then and Microsoft was hell bent against dynamic languages. But now? Microsoft is investing in creating versions of Python and Ruby for .NET and of course already has Jscript. If these dynamic languages can be developed for .NET, there's no reason VFP can't be ported to .NET. The new DLR (Dynamic Language Runtime) for .NET should make this relatively easy. The marketplace has made Microsoft take notice of dynamic languages and as a result, a VFP.NET would take considerably less effort than it would've in the 90s.

From the comments:

It's made me reconsider all aspects of my business that are dependent on a single vendor.

On Announcement (Blog: Andy Kramek)

So, no more Visual FoxPro. Now what?

From the blog:

Whether we like it or not Visual FoxPro is bedded firmly in the technology of the 1980s and 90s. "Backward Compatibility' has always been one of Visual FoxPro's major strengths, but this is partly because it hasn’t really changed its core technology that much over the years. Now we are confronted with 64-bit, multiple processor hardware with more RAM than one would have dreamed of 5 years ago.

So what I am I doing about it all? Nothing! My clients typically are small to medium size businesses who are looking for fast, cost-effective (i.e. cheap!) solutions to business problems. Mostly they require solutions that run on desk-top PCs over secure Local Area networks. Typically they couldn't care less what the solution is created with. What they require is results, not conformity to corporate strategic plans.

Of course I will continue to provide the best service I can for my clients; where that means using SQL Server for a database, I will. If it means developing a browser based application in ASP .NET and C# then I will do that (and indeed, I have done so). But when I need a middle tier, data aware COM component, or a simple desktop application that accesses only data held locally then I will still be turning to Visual FoxPro as my number one development tool.

The author's reply to someone's comment:

In your twenties? Then your situation is different from mine. I only plan to be working for 4 or 5 more years anyway. However you should take a look at the direction in which things are moving and decide where you want to go to. Your basic VFP skills will serve you well whatever language you decide to adopt. But when you do decide, do it properly! Get some initial trianing, study the Forums, attend Conferences, User Groups, discussions with colleagues - anything to get a start.

"Microsoft Does Open-Source and FoxPro a Real Favor" (Article: Steven Vaughan-Nichols)

by Steven Vaughan-Nichols

This was one of a few articles that mistakenly stated MS was open-sourcing the core.

From the article:

If you were to ask me today for a DBMS recommendation, depending on your needs, I might still recommend FoxPro. For most business uses, Im going to come down in favor of MySQL, but for smaller projects, FoxPro still has many advantages.

On Announcement: (Blog: Tim Anderson)

End of the road for FoxPro

From the comments:

In my view this Sedna move is a way of hiding the future limited objectives of VFP. The development costs will be reduced as will the user base of developers.

IMHO it is going the wrong way but, at the same time, VFP needs an OOD exclusive language and a data/presentation split to help it move on. This is NOT going to happen because of the way VFP is built for speed and where it commercially sits.

"FoxPro Not an Endangered Species" (Article: Mary Jo Foley)

Link Here

From the article:

Here's why I believe FoxPro is going to matter for more than just the next few years: There are still hundreds of thousands of FoxPro users, by Microsoft's own estimates. They don't sound like they're planning on going anywhere any time soon. Many of these folks are happy that Microsoft never attempted to .Net-ify FoxPro, and think FoxPro is better for the decision.

Microsoft is certainly not going to pull the rug out from under these folks (the way it did with the Visual Basic 6.0 diehards—but that's for another column). That's mainly because the Microsoft dev team has figured out it has a lot to gain from FoxPro. Alan Griver, Microsoft's Visual Studio Data Group manager, acknowledged the growing synergies between Fox and Visual Studio earlier this year in the FoxTalk newsletter. "I don't believe that there should be a wall between the two teams [Visual Studio Data Tools and FoxPro],” Griver said. "To that end, some of the Fox people are bringing some of the great capabilities of Fox to .NET. But at the same time, there are people from the Visual Data Tools team who are working now on Fox. It's not a question of resources going only one way from Fox to Visual Studio.”

From the comments:

Sedna is a band-aid covering a gaping hole in the Microsoft dev strategy and a very cold distant place, indeed.

Another:

As to her question about what has caused the new lease on life, I think there are several factors. One is unquestionably the lamentable data handling capabilities of the .NET environment. Another is that, once again, Microsoft seem to have forgotten that the vast majority of companies simply do not have limitless IT resources.

Another:

Good talent is actually easier to find with VFP than with Dot Net

Another:

While I do a lot in Java (J2EE) now, I miss the simple and fast way of development and prototyping in VFP. Fox is not only mature it is ripe.

A scathing post:

I totally disagree. Foxpro is definitely on limited life support. Only the most Die Hard Foxpro users can’t and won’t see it. Here are a few HINTs. This is a you might be a redneck kind of list MicroSoft Might Be Killing your development tool if….. 1.) They remove the product name from the project managers title (ie Ken Levy) 2.) They stop all certifications for you development tool. 3.) They start offering free books on how to use there other development tools on your development tools web page. 4.) Your development tools web page contains as many or more references to .Net as it does to itself. 5.) The product development team is going to spend two years on a glorified update instead of a full version. 6.) The decision has been made not to move your product to 64 bit. 7.) You can only find books for your development tool online. 8.) Your Advisor Magazine is looking thiner than a bulimic Ethiopian. 9.) Every single reference source , website , and publication on your development tool refers to .Net as much or more than it does to the development tool itself.

Doesn't mince words:

Even worse than Rodney Dangerfield, FoxPro is the red headed bastard child of Microsoft....Things would probably be very different if the marketing department at Microsoft had actually marketed VFP in the beginning as what it really is and was: A new object oriented software development tool that rivals Java and VB for the desktop....When Ken Levy (the project lead for VFP at Microsoft) announced that Visual FoxPro core runtime would likely not be modified and the next version of Visual FoxPro would likely not be a version at all. To me and others this signaled the beginning of the end of VFP, and just another effort internally at Microsoft to marginalize the product further...I sent Ken an email expressing my concerns about the future of VFP. He responded by basically saying that the focus of VFP would now be on extendibility and compatibility with .NET and Vista, and he offered me a VFP t-shirt as a consolation prize. As much as I am a fan of VFP, my biggest concern is that as the core runtime of Visual FoxPro will remain untouched with Sedna, which also means that the product is stagnating and not evolving. Adding external modules to make VFP more compatible (interoperable) with .NET is fine, but it sounds like VFP is being put on life support, and that the evolution of the software is headed to a slow but ultimate extinction.

Another:

MS had some really smart people who made it better than MS wanted it to be, but because MS wasn't really paying that much attention to it, it got very popular, very fast...Well, the VFP community is totally committed to VFP's future, even if MS isn't, and I think MS gets a wakeup call everytime they start talking about shelving it. If they do, there will be literally hundreds of thousands of developers who will go looking elsewhere for a datacentric development tool as an alternative to VFP. Does one exist right now...NO. Will someone provide one just as soon as MS drops VFP, you bet!

Kindred Soul:

If Microsoft abandons VFP then I guarantee you I'll abandon Microsoft!

Another:

Rudy Robinson wrote that " It continues to pay all my bills and impress my customers, who really don't care what language you use to write their software as long as they get exactly what they want." Now I only write apps for my personal use but I can't help but believe that the developers' customers could care less about what language is used as long as the software written from it works as desired. I love my computer and I love VFP, but most people I know in business don't give a rat's rear. A computer and its software are just tools to get a job done. VFP does that. Dot Net? What the hell is that? Will it increase my bottom line?

Someone like me:

If it wasn't for VFP I think I wouldn't have reasons to use Windows at all.

Justified Cynic:

I have to question the statement “There are still hundreds of thousands of FoxPro users” and " They don't sound like they're planning on going anywhere any time soon." I just find this so very hard to believe. For years now I have watched the numbers of FoxPro developers and users dwindle. I have watched the number of opportunities to work with FoxPro diminish to the current virtually non-existent level. I have watched FoxPro developer after FoxPro developer leave FoxPro behind and move on to newer technologies, technologies with a future. I have watched FoxPro application after FoxPro application get replaced with some other technology. I am currently working on a FoxPro application that is run at over 400 locations by several thousand users. And guess what, we are working fervently to replace it with a dot net application. I read the article “FoxPro Not an Endangered Species “ with some interest. What I see is FoxPro features being moved into dot net, something that Microsoft has done for a long time (moving FoxPro technology to other tools, such as Rushmore in Jet). I see them looking at FoxPro and listening to developers to determine what they can do to improve dot net. I see the potential of Sedna, but maybe I'm jaded from so many years of working with an excellent tool that has for the most part been ignored by Microsoft? I believe it is going to take a lot more then this to restore our faith in Microsoft, and a whole lot more then this to convince us that FoxPro has any future at all. And it will take even more of an effort by Microsoft to stem the mass migration away from FoxPro that has been happening for years and continues to this day. The damage has been done, and the damage is severe. My personal opinion is that it is too late for FoxPro. It is for all practical purposes already dead, and I personally do not believe that Microsoft has any desire to do anything to change that.

Anti .Net:

As a software consultant, I cannot in good conscience walk into a small or medium size company and offer to write their specialty application in .NET with an SQL Server backend.

Interesting:

I have just finished a CAD-like application for a very special vertical market. My end-users design Windows and doors from an extremely user friendly interface they have incredibly-fast cost calculations, they have reports that turn to PDF or Word documents they send email inside my app and all these favor to VFP. I tried some years ago to build the same app with VB6 and a half dozen activex controls (for painting, for griding, for reporting etc...) but the result was dissapointing. Trying the same with the VFP I have a very clean object oriented application with everything implemented in VFP 9. Using GDIplus for my drawing needs I have implemented a very sophisticated CAD application which runs from a USB drive! No Setup headaches, no MDAC dependencies, no Dll hell, No problem with older machines, no problem at all! That's why I love VFP and that's why I will code in VFP for (at least) the next 10 years.

Testament:

If you want to create dancing bears, music and a light show, use VS. If want want to collect, manipulate and distribute data, get Foxpro. The right tool for the right job. I have been using Fox products since Foxbase first came out. I still use it and prefer it over all other languages (and I have used most of them). Though half of my work now is dealing with the other MS products, I still prefer VFP for its power and RAD. Sure, I could do everything in .NET, but why when we are doing in-house applications. I work circles areound those .NET fanaitics, who curse the very ground I walk on for making them look so bad. One client I worked with wanted to expand one of my applications to all departments in their agency. I shot them a bid of $150,000 and showed them a working model with several depatments in it. While users and management were impressed, IT managers decided instead to use .NET products (stating it would cost too much to train their people to use VFP). After 4 years and $5,000,000 (five million), everyone is still critisizing the app IT built and comparing it to the VFP app, which is still running fine and pleasing management. They just canned half of that development team and are now looking at a total re-write. To add insult to injury, they have asked for the most bizarre, complex and ridiculous features to be put into out application hoping it couldn't be accomplished and then they could scrap it. I always brought back their request within 24 hours. Remote access, talk to the mainframe, internet apps, it doesn't matter. If it means working with data, we get it done.

And finally:

Looks like Mary Jo doesn't have ESP.

"FoxPro Developers Prep for Microsoft Sedna" (Article: eWeek)

by eWEEK

From the article:

Even though there are still hundreds of thousands of FoxPro users, and Microsoft has said it will support FoxPro through 2014, Microsoft has done little to enhance the language.

While Microsoft doesnt state it quite so bluntly, Visual FoxPros foremost competitors are Visual Studio, Microsoft Access and SQL Server. That explains in large part why the Redmond software vendor isnt jumping through hoops for Visual FoxPro.

"Microsoft Puts FoxPro Out to Pasture" (Article: Darryl K. Taft)

Link Here

From the article:

Dave Dierke, president and CEO of AccountMate Software, in Novato, Calif., a Microsoft partner steeped in FoxPro, said Microsoft has been signaling its intent to drop FoxPro for some time.

"Weve been watching this shoe dropping for years," Dierke said, noting that AccountMate is one of Microsofts largest FoxPro partners.

"Our code is large; its like the Queen Mary of FoxPro," Dierke said. "We have years and years of strict discipline here, and almost all of our engineers are CPAs." So with a view toward the future, "We started transitioning off of Visual FoxPro and started using some of the new development tools" in Microsofts .Net stack, Dierke said.

Another snippet:

Tommy Tan, chief technology officer at AccountMate, said the company will most likely transform its development to Visual Basic.Net.

"There are no pure conversions to convert FoxPro code to .Net, so we basically have to rewrite a lot of things," Tan said. "But Microsoft has introduced a lot of new features to do subsystems with .Net components" that can be read from FoxPro, he said.

Finally:

Dierke said he is aware that some of the FoxPro developer base will be "feeling some pain, because there has been a cult-like following, but they are also technologists first and this may give them further opportunities."

Indeed, "it may be a good thing for the industry," Dierke said. And some may welcome the change. At AccountMate, "it was getting harder and harder to keep some of our younger engineers excited about developing in FoxPro," he said.

"Microsoft to release FoxPro ‘Sedna’ as Shared Source" (Article: Mary-Jo Foley)

Link Here


From the comments:

Shared Source isn't Open Source. Wait to see which of their Shared Source licenses they're using before you get excited about this.

Another:

It's getting old...'m all for new technology, but I'm getting tired of being forced to migrate working systems just for Microsoft's benefit. Let's see, in the past decade or so we've had NT, 2000, XP SP1, VB6, MFC, COM, COM+, now FoxPro. They were each portrayed as the greatest thing ever in their time, now (or soon to be) no longer supported. Many of us took the bait but also got the hook. Now we're being forced to migrate over what should be minor issues (like a new DST schedule).

Most processes will need to be upgraded at some point, but generally not until an underlying business rule changes, and I resent being forced to "fix" something that isn't broken.

It makes sense that a commercial software vendor can't afford to support old systems indefinitely. With open source, however, a package will be updated as long as there are users (Apache Server 1.x). Even an unpopular open source system can be maintained by hiring a programmer for the occasional DST fix, which could be a lot cheaper than upgrading a farm of servers. Going forward I'll be using open source whenever possible.

Another:

A project with a vibrant user base would never get dropped if it was open source. That only happens in the proprietary world.
Like the other poster said, they are still even maintaining Apache 1.x versions.

If you have the source, it is not much work to at least do security and DST like fixes.

Another:

True, FoxPro is scheduled to die a slow death.

That, even though there is a large and vibrant user community.

Another reason to not use closed source.

On Announcement (Blog: Andrew MacNeill)

Future of (your) Development Lies in You, Not Microsoft

From the Blog:

I also wanted to make a comment about Microsoft's development approach. They have a lot of great tools and amazing people. But one thing that has frustrated me and other developers is their need to continually RE-PACKAGE or re-design development approaches. And this isn't just with FoxPro and VFP. This is about development architecture. In the beginning was Client-Server, then DNA, then COM, then COM+, SOAP, etc, etc. You used to access data via ODBC, then ADO, now ADO.Net and now LINQ. You could build forms with VB, then in Visual Studio 2003, it was WinForms, and now it's WPF/E. And most of these changes in strategy have come out all within the past 10-15 years. This isn't to say they aren't good or great. But many of these changes weren't easy to bring about in existing code - they required redesign. The developers who jumped on one technology's bandwagon then had to be prepared to jump over to the next new one when it came out, because it was "going away".

From the comments:

VFP will live as the desktop development lives!...BTW, I keep an eye on .Net and I hope until 2015 Microsoft to have a VFP equivalent product for the job.

Another:

...the one shining star in this otherwise dark last few days is the potential that placing VFP in the open source community has.

It also has a potentially huge downside, but, honestly, I don't know if it could get much worse, and, if some of the folks who've been working with the internals for years hang in there, it could be an entire 'breath of fresh air' for the future of VFP.

On Announcement (Blog: David Hunter)

Say goodbye to FoxPro

From the blog:

Speaking of Microsoft acquisitions, a graphic reminder that they don’t always turn out to be super successful...

On Announcement (Blog: Alan Griver)

Twenty years and counting...

After the following comment was left, no more postings were allowed:

You make this sound like foxpro is a person. It is a software package. This was handled like crap and I'm tired of reading the positive please quit wasting your time and stop posting this nonsense. Spend you time playing with .BLOAT instead of embarassing yourself.

Here is an interesting perspective, there is no positive for anyone but M$FT. MSFT screwed the fox developers AND you lead the parade. Now we are forced into a .NET world which is a bloat ware at it’s best. Have you ever tried to use it for "REAL" a desktop application instead of playing with Northwind? There is no comparison to VFP.

At least respect us enough to tell us the truth on your blog instead of this nonsense. It came down to a publisher based pricing subscription model and tying tools into your server operating systems to keep the MICROSOFT MONOPOLOY alive and well. Bottom line Fox did not fit into the paradigm.

You want to handle this right keep supporting one of the few M$FT software packages that worked. sell it to a third party to continue development, OR at least provide a migration path that leads us into the PIT of .CRAP. You are doing none of the above.

You guys lost touch with reality. Keep telling everyone your spin if it helps you sleep at night. I personally expected a lot more from you. As you, Ken, and Strahl are one of the few developers I respected. That is gone. So just keep talking to your MVP friends that earned their status by evangelizing Microsoft, they will make you feel better....

THANKS ALAN WE APPRECIATE THAT YOU HANDLED THIS CORRECTLY !

I thought you where so much smarter then that.

On Announcement (Blog: Robert Shelton)

Visual FoxPro 1984-2007...A moment of silence please...

From the comments:

...simple, elegant and powerful... that will truly be the Fox/VFP legacy...I've been talking to Fox folks all week, we seem both saddened, and yet hopeful... sad as Microsoft finally dod what we all knew they would do when they bought it back in '92, hopeful that in CodePlex it may well find a resurgence and some new found allies.

My situation: A history of dead ends

I have a long history of choosing great technologies that get left behind too quickly.

It started with Apple. My first computer was an Apple //c which I saved by mowing many, many lawns. I eventually did the same to buy the Apple IIgs, only to find that "Apple II Forever!" was marketing hype. I didn't resent that Mac, but there was no path to follow for transitioning. By the time they came out with an Apple II card, I was long gone. I have not used an Apple since.

I sold the GS and bought an Amiga 500. Again, I upgraded to the higher model: an Amiga 3000. Then Commodore went bankrupt. My friend tried to talk me into switching to Atari. I passed - It would have been a fun, short ride, but eventually would have ended in the same heartbreak.

Enter the PC: I obtained a 486 running Windows 3.1. I remember the thrill of upgrading to Windows 95 and 98. I skipped ME (fortunately) because I was studying for 2000 certification. XP arrived along with Windows Server 2003.

Throughout this journey, I have come to know MS software quite well -- and it drives me crazy. I'm always stunned by the needless changes in each new version: features are renamed, locations of options are shuffled, etc. I'm also stunned by the things that don't change: no option to keep any given window on top of the others, many windows that should be resizable aren't (which forces lots of horiz/vert scrolling), etc. It's the little things, needlessly persistent, that can drive one over the edge.

I miss the excitement of computers. Foxpro has it -- Vista doesn't. I love programming in VFP, but the fact that no one knows whether or not those programs will work post-Vista is disconcerting.

Although proprietary software is usually of the highest quality, there also that inherent risk from having all of your eggs in one basket. Honestly, I have no interest in .NET. It's another opportunity to get burned by Microsoft.

I'm interested in Open Source, but that domain doesn't offer a Fox equivalent either. So, what's the next best thing?

My mission is to get a feel for the pulse of VFP and to seek out worthy alternatives.

MS's Announcement on VFP's retirement

A Message to the Community

We have been asked about our plans for a new version of VFP. We are announcing today that there will be no VFP 10. VFP9 will continue to be supported according to our existing policy with support through 2015 (http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=7992). We will be releasing SP2 for Visual FoxPro 9 this summer as planned, providing fixes and additional support for Windows Vista.

Additionally, as you know, we’ve been working on a project codenamed Sedna for the past year or so. Sedna is built using the extensibility model of VFP9 and provides a number of new features including enhanced connectivity to SQL Server, integration with parts of the .NET framework, support for search using Windows Desktop Search and Windows Vista as well as enhanced access to VFP data from Visual Studio.

Concurrently, the community has been using CodePlex (http://www.codeplex.com) to enhance VFP using these same capabilities in the VFPx and VFPy projects. Some of these community driven enhancements include:

• Support for GDI+
• An enhanced class browser
• Support for Windows Desktop Alerts
• An object oriented menu system
• Integration with MSBuild
• A rule-based code analysis tool similar to fxCop in Visual Studio
• An Outlook Control Bar control

To reiterate, today we are announcing that we are not planning on releasing a VFP 10 and will be releasing the completed Sedna work on CodePlex at no charge. The components written as part of Sedna will be placed in the community for further enhancement as part of our shared source initiative. You can expect to see the Sedna code on CodePlex sometime before the end of summer 2007.


The VFP team

Me: Purpose of the weblog

Over the past three years, I have been learning Visual Foxpro. My mission was to take an existing database, make it accessible from the web, and eventually redevelop the database into a commercially viable product. Now, I find myself, like many others, at a crossroads. Microsoft has announced the end of development for Foxpro, and I must choose whether or not to continue developing with it. To help me make this decision, I will be searching the web for others' thoughts on the matter. I'll compile them here, and chronicle my own thinking, so that it may be preserved for review. I won't be copying weblog entries verbatim, but I will highlight portions that I find interesting.

Perhaps others will discover this and offer their opinions. Although this is for my sake only, maybe others will find it useful as well.